Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

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Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby redbugpest » 12 Oct 2010 13:16

"The whiffle of a small animal drinking at the qanat behind her caught
Ghanima's awareness. Natural sounds and natural things. Her memory searched
through a strange silent barrier in her mind, found a priestess of Jowf captured
in Assyria by Sennacherib. The memories of that priestess told Ghanima what
would have to be done here. Palimbasha and his woman there were mere children,
wayward and dangerous. They knew nothing of Jowf, knew not even the name of the
planet where Sennacherib and the priestess had faded into dust. The thing which
was about to happen to the pair of conspirators, if it were explained to them,
could only be explained in terms of beginning here."


This passage from CoD seems to be the only place that the priestess and Sennacherib are mentioned, and I have always wondered if Frank Herbert had drawn this from a legend or historical account. I know that Sennacherib was campaigning in the Al-Jowf region of Saudi Arabia, but have not been able to nail down any direct correlation to anything from the time frame.

I would love to find and read it if it exists...
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby lotek » 12 Oct 2010 15:10

hey!
A good question?

With an answer that doesn't come out of the hack's mouth?

Wow... what happened to you?

I would love to find and read it if it exists...


if what exists? The correlation?

You actually found one, didn't you?
Looking for a time coincidence might be pushing it a bit(but who knows)

With the info available now, it seems Frank read about al Jowf and Sennacherib and just used the names because they sounded ancient enough to remind of "Ancient Terra"(and the mingling of names after so much time)
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby redbugpest » 12 Oct 2010 15:59

lotek wrote:hey!
A good question?

With an answer that doesn't come out of the hack's mouth?

Wow... what happened to you?

I would love to find and read it if it exists...


if what exists? The correlation?

You actually found one, didn't you?
Looking for a time coincidence might be pushing it a bit(but who knows)

With the info available now, it seems Frank read about al Jowf and Sennacherib and just used the names because they sounded ancient enough to remind of "Ancient Terra"(and the mingling of names after so much time)


No, I have not found it (the source for the reference if it exists). If there is a historical text, or a legend / myth / fable that this comes from, I would be interested in reading it.

The rest of the scene in CoD plays out with Ghanima killing Pamimbasha with a poisoned dart

"Ghanima put the tube to her mouth and, with the memory of the priestess of
Jowf clearly in her awareness, she sighted carefully, expelled her breath in one
strong surge.
Palimbasha batted at his cheek, drew away a hand with a speck of blood on
it. The needle was nowhere to be seen, flicked away by the motion of his own
hand."



Al-Jowf, as far as I can tell, is a little known spot in north Saudi Arabia that not much is known about historically. I have not found any direct mention about it in relation to Sennacherib, or even what religion the "priestess" may have been. I know that this is in the same region as Jerusalem, and that Sennacherib suffered a defeat when trying to take Jerusalem.
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby Aquila ka-Hecate » 12 Oct 2010 22:20

I'm thinking - given the time frame - that the priestess might have been a Priestess of Baal, a sort of generic deity name meaning, I'm lead to believe, something like 'Lord'.

That part of the world was however rife with Goddesses at that time, more than Gods who were often considered the consorts of the Lady.

Again - I'm not an historian or an antiquarian, just have a passing interest in ancient deity forms.

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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby SandRider » 13 Oct 2010 00:01

Jowf, an oasis south of the Syrian frontier. It contain seven principal and some smaller villages. The population is set down at 40,000 souls; they are governed by an emeer, who depends on the prince of Shomer. - Encyclopaedia Britannica, 10th Edition (1902)
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby redbugpest » 13 Oct 2010 06:48

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:I'm thinking - given the time frame - that the priestess might have been a Priestess of Baal, a sort of generic deity name meaning, I'm lead to believe, something like 'Lord'.

That part of the world was however rife with Goddesses at that time, more than Gods who were often considered the consorts of the Lady.

Again - I'm not an historian or an antiquarian, just have a passing interest in ancient deity forms.


I am not a historian either :)

Baal was kind of a catch all term used for any deity, and may have been associated with Marduk. It is quite possible that Marduk worship was practiced in Al-Jowf region.

The CoD passage seems to make a connection with the action of the priestess and what Ghanima is about to do with the dart, but Sennacherib was killed by his sons.
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby SandChigger » 13 Oct 2010 11:58

It's so heart-warming to see you seeming to fit in, like some sort of real Dune fan.

Now go die in a fire. :)

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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby Freakzilla » 13 Oct 2010 12:27

SandChigger wrote:Now go die in a fire. :)


I'm currently working on a fire alarm system for a hotel in Bagdad. First building I've done a design for that has air raid shelters. I was just wondering...

If you're in an air raid shelter, where do you go if the fire alarm goes off? :?
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby redbugpest » 13 Oct 2010 13:01

Freakzilla wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Now go die in a fire. :)


I'm currently working on a fire alarm system for a hotel in Bagdad. First building I've done a design for that has air raid shelters. I was just wondering...

If you're in an air raid shelter, where do you go if the fire alarm goes off? :?


Into the light.... :D
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby SandChigger » 13 Oct 2010 16:57

Mmm... do I smell cracklin's? Sooooeeeee!

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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby Kojiro » 13 Oct 2010 20:37

Put me down for a rib, Chigger.
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby redbugpest » 14 Oct 2010 16:08

I think that I am going to repost this over at DN, now that I have finally gotten an approved activation message on my newest request... I'll post any response I get here (should I get one).
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby SandRider » 14 Oct 2010 17:21

redbugpest wrote:I think that I am going to repost this over at DN, now that I have finally gotten an approved activation message on my newest request... I'll post any response I get here (should I get one).



wait, what ?

you're going to ask Merritt & Arnoldo Fayne about a reference in Frank's Dune ?



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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby merkin muffley » 14 Oct 2010 17:25

redbugpest wrote:I think that I am going to repost this over at DN, now that I have finally gotten an approved activation message on my newest request... I'll post any response I get here (should I get one).


Oh, okay, very well then, in that case...

It's my understanding that the Priestess of Jowf would have worn a pearl necklace of awareness, however, is it still considered a pearl necklace if it's on her ass?
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby Freakzilla » 14 Oct 2010 18:01

merkin muffley wrote:
redbugpest wrote:I think that I am going to repost this over at DN, now that I have finally gotten an approved activation message on my newest request... I'll post any response I get here (should I get one).


Oh, okay, very well then, in that case...

It's my understanding that the Priestess of Jowf would have worn a pearl necklace of awareness, however, is it still considered a pearl necklace if it's on her ass?


Pearl belt?
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby SandRider » 14 Oct 2010 18:01

lemme g'head and save you some time:

Freakin' Admin wrote:Hmmm. That's a good question.

Arnoldo wrote:It is always possible. Let me begin by writing about what others too have written. First Hellanicus [g90] of Lesbos and Ctesias of Cnidus, followed by Herodotus of Halicarnassus [have written about the Assyrians]. The first of the Assyrians to rule over the Asians was Belus' son, Ninus. During his reign many valorous deeds were done. Then he continues to discuss the birth of Semiramis, Zoroaster the Mage, war with the king of the Bactrians and the military defeat by Semiramis. Ninus' reign lasted for 52 years, and then he died. After him [g91] Semiramis ruled. It was she who built the walls around Babylon in the manner described by many [writers such as] Ctesias, Zenon, Herodotus and others after him.

Then he describes how Semiramis mustered troops [and went] against India, her defeat and flight; how she killed her own sons and then was killed by her son Ninyas, after a reign of 42 years. Then Ninyas assumed power. Cephalion says that he did nothing worthy of recall. Then he and others describe how for a thousand years power passed from father to son with none of them [g92] ruling for less than 20 years. Disliking warfare and strife they were effeminate, carefully keeping themselves fortified indoors, doing nothing, and seeing no one except their concubines or effeminate men. It seems to me that Ctesias records the names of some 23 of these kings, should someone want to know about them in more detail. But what pleasure or satisfaction would it bring to record the barbaric names [g93] of despicable, weak savages who displayed neither valor nor brave deeds?

[Cephalion] says next that 640 years later, Belimus ruled over the Assyrians. Perseus, [son] of Danae arrived in his land with 100 ships. He was escaping from Semele's son, Dionysius. After describing the defeat of Perseus by Dionysius, [Cephalion] says that in later times, when Pannyas [g94] ruled over the Assyrians, the fleet of the Argonauts sailed up the Phasis River to Mende' in Colchis. Hercules had [previously] left the ship out of his desire and longing for Hylas. As they say, he wandered about seeking [Hylas] in Cappadocia. Furthermore [Cephalion] says that 1000 years had elapsed from Semiramis to King Mitraeus. If one computes it, [the story of Medea and the period of King Mitreus] join up. [It was then] that Medea left King Aegeus [?Aeetes] of Colchis out of lust [for Jason]. Her son was Medus, whence Media, that is the [Armenian term] Mark' ("Medes"). Moreover that land is called Media, [g95] which is Marastan [in Armenian]. [Cephalion] says that Teutamus succeeded Mitraeus. The former also lived according to the customs and laws of the Assyrians. Nothing new occurred during his reign.

Agamemnon and Menelaeus, the Mycenaeans, mustered troops with the Argives and went against the city of Ilium while Priam was general of Phrygia. He said: "The Greek troops [g96] which have come against me have reached your own land. We have engaged them in battle, sometimes winning, sometimes losing. But now, behold, my own son Hector has died among many other brave sons. Send us auxiliary troops under a courageous general." [Cephalion] then describes in detail how Teutamus sent assistance to him under the generalship of Memnon, Tithonus' son. However, the Thessalians (T'eghaghats'ik) treacherously killed him. In another passage [Cephalion] says that Sardanapallus became king of the Assyrians in the 1,013 th year; and then he describes his destruction. After the death of Sardanapallus, (V)Arbaces the Mede, destroyed the power of the Assyrians and transferred rule to the Medes. All this is related by Cephalion.Here is the way the Chaldeans describe the kings of their land, from Alorus to [g76] Alexander. There is no special attention given to Ninus or Semiramis. So saying, [Abydenus] begins [g77] his account. He says that [the kings of the Assyrians] were Ninus, son of Arbelus, son of Chaalus, son of Arbelus, son of Anebus, son of Babus, son of the Assyrian king Belus [g78].
Then [Abydenus] describes [the rulers] one by one, from Ninus and Semiramis to Sardanapallus, who was the last of them. From the latter until the first [g79] Olympiad 67 years elapsed. Abydenus wrote about each of the Assyrian kings, one by one [g80] in this fashion. He is not the sole [author to write about them]. Castor, too, in the summary of his first Chronology describes the Assyrian kings in the same manner to the refuge of Solomon.

This seems to make the issue clear.
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby Tleszer » 14 Oct 2010 19:12

:shock:

There's no way in hell I'm reading that drivel.
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby SandChigger » 14 Oct 2010 20:30

redbugpest wrote:I think that I am going to repost this over at DN, now that I have finally gotten an approved activation message on my newest request... I'll post any response I get here (should I get one).

Well, piggy in a graduation gown, congratulations! You'll make a fine addition to a right shite site! :lol:

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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby redbugpest » 14 Oct 2010 20:44

Who the hell is neogeek? :?
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby SandChigger » 14 Oct 2010 21:53

Your mama.

Told you they were dumbasses over there. But believe ME?! NOOOOOOO! :roll:

Oink.

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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby Eyes High » 14 Oct 2010 23:03

redbugpest wrote:I think that I am going to repost this over at DN, now that I have finally gotten an approved activation message on my newest request... I'll post any response I get here (should I get one).


Happy for you that you received activation, but I wouldn't hold my breath for a real answer from those people.
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby SandRider » 15 Oct 2010 01:42

I, too, recently had (another) account activated Over There - Byron Merritt is a moron ...




@tleszer - I think that went over your head, or you were skimming posts too fast -
Freak & Merk got inbetween my posts - I was saving Brian the time of posting his
question about this topic by providing a (most probably very accurate) simulation
of what the response would be Over There ....

I just googled "assyria", randomly clicked a link, then randomly copypasta'd a few
paragraphs, adding only "It is always possible" & "This seems to make the issue clear",
which is exactly what Arnie does ...
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby Tleszer » 15 Oct 2010 09:13

I figured it was a joke (b/c of "Freakin' Admin") but I like reading those odd/off-beat posts now and again. You can never have enough laughter in life, especially on an internet forum! :lol:

In regards to Merkin's "pearl necklaces" comment, I've been trying to behave myself... I'm sure Hwi wished she had Leto's Pearls of Awareness all over her-- :shock:

There are decent people reading these messages and it would be wrong and improper to subject them to such filth. :oops: :roll: :lol:
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby redbugpest » 15 Oct 2010 10:06

First impressions of DN are not really good....
:shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: Priestess of Jowf - legend or historic?

Postby Freakzilla » 15 Oct 2010 10:09

redbugpest wrote:First impressions of DN are not really good....
:shock: :shock: :shock:


That's because all the people who knew anything about Dune have been banned... unless they're sock puppets.
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